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They do not agree

Therefore, there is no such school, one on which they agree. Therefore, schools should be different
http://ivanov-petrov.livejournal.com/1631414.html?thread=81314230 # t81314230

zyrianin Soviet school was not brought up "dumb idiots. " A graduate of the school - troechnik was not present secondary education, but horoshist tend to have an education. Moreover, the triple trio discord: if student learning, in principle, well, and only 1-2 Subject had "no go" - most likely the objects he still knows at least three. Ie understand what they say in class, can recite chapter textbook after reading it. No need to ask for more, if the subject unloved.
Do all teens are sure to make secondary education? Apparently, no need. Do I have to anyone teenager received such an education? I think that in the XXI century it is not discussed. And here we come to main cavity, which makes the discussion a standard acceptable. That education which will meet him - not the average. Get full higher education, having a "mean" impossible. No complete picture of the world, allowing to build on it a little bit the modern world. (I do not like hack term scientific outlook, I think its scientistic - but to participate in shaping the worldview of modern science cheloeka certainly should.)



ignum I wonder which set of items you would consider it sufficient for secondary education? and whether, in principle, in your opinion, secondary education with the ability to choose subjects?

If you can, then on a couple of my case studies - which is absolutely not enough?
So put 9.10 items + Ind. project. That is, it turns out that in addition to 6-way or another compulsory subject, you can select 4.3.

Here are 6 mandatory:
1. "Russian and literature" (selected level, the lowest is called the "Russian Literature»)
2. "Mathematics" (set level) separately or as part of the Mathematics and Computer Science »
3. First foreign language Language (selectable level)
4. "Sport»
5. "OBZH»
6. "Russia in the world»

Here, for example, a physicist and mathematician might choose:
1. Computers
2. Physics
3. Chemistry
4. Social Studies or geography

Thus mathematics and the first 2-3 from the list, apparently, on a profile level. Maybe the chemistry can be eliminated or replaced by biology or science. Well, with the latter the subject of possible options.
Here is an example for future physicians:
1. Biology
2. Chemistry
3. Physics
4. Social science or geography

on a profile level - the first 2 for sure, and something more to your taste. Maybe physics excluded in favor of science, then math can be studied separately from her at a high-level ...
Of course, there is less things than they are now being taught. But it's important not to forget that we are just about the last two classes, and before that in fact all subjects studied. This
- not drawn to secondary education? Not even close to pulling? Or you can discuss the details?



zyrianin Secondary education - one that allows, on this basis to get higher. This does not mean that every graduate will be able to study at any university. But the program, which he learned it in principle, allows. The subtlety is that the levels of uptake may be different. But the general familiarity with the subject, at least three (I said above, what is meant by the "troika") necessary. So, whole modern world requires familiarity with all the things you mentioned. If some of them high school graduate did not know at all, "did not pass, chose other subjects - hence, the school was not high. History, geography, mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, language (mother tongue, foreign language) and literature - all the items needed. Specialization is valid only in depth study of selected subjects.


fugu_fish All of the above you subjects studied up to tenth grade on a mandatory basis, familiarity with each student is guaranteed.


zyrianin This program high school (former and current) can be constructed from fragments, pledged by individual school subjects, some coherent vision of the world. Physics and geography (climate), biology and organic chemistry ... Level up to 9 th grade for this is too weak, superficial.


ignum That is a legacy Soviet-era school program all the great world for a quarter century has not changed, or at least change it for the educational system not significant. So for me there does not need anything. I understand you correctly?



zyrianin The world has changed and will change even more. It therefore, school education should be strengthened, not weakened.


ignum Alas, it is only common words. Proponents say the standard that he, as just such a purpose and aims.
while taking into account and change the reality around the pupil, and the real limitations of time and other resources.

Since step of simulation study of the whole pile of items to the actual study intelligently chosen set - is to enhance education.



zyrianin say something say. Already spoken. And why this does not correspond to reality, I have already explained. Fixation and legalization of the current school does nedoobrazovaniya it does not increase. "Reasonable to choose the set of" natural history with a total humanitarian program, or a more complete program with natural holes in the social studies do not provide a sufficient basis either for further higher education or for self-education.


mel_nizza Keyword - Dating. First, if you look at the already approved standards for primary school, you'll see there are not objects, and all of the same subject areas. Their study is guaranteed by the standard but the breakdown of items - it will be a different story. Defined state order for educational services. Secondly, if you look at the situation in the present tense, even if the schedule of physics, chemistry, history, etc., are familiar with them, to put it mildly, not the most efficient way. Namely: now 7 years as the teaching of these subjects is concentrically. As elegantly put g.Kondakov, we jumped off the line at concenters. This means that the material previously studied in primary and high schools, is now completely stuffed into the main (without increasing the number of hours). Naturally, the children were objectively unable to absorb the material with the same kachestvom.Potom in high school, has already passed the material was studied again, but then disgust, mingled with horror, which formed a significant number of students who were forced in grade 9 to get acquainted with the material 4-5-sections of the lesson - not the best motivation teachings and not the most productive framework for learning course at a deeper level. That is why the depressing deterioration of the quality of graduates may determined not only and not behind the school aunts of life or thinking klipovym objects of the educational process, many specific changes introduced into the practice of schools in the process of reform. And has seized another conclusion: the standards of high school should not be considered separately of the whole reform (CSE concenters, profilization, Law 83, the standards of primary and secondary school).


philtrius - zyrianin Opyt Vashih tezisov not podtverzhdaet. Bb Russian classical gimnazii was not himii nor biologii nor obschestvovѣdeniya, physics was held at poverhnostnom urovnѣ; tѣm not menѣe it obrazovanie and thought, and in fact was dostatochnym universitetskago for any course.


zyrianin Chemistry then just beginning to converge with physics and biology. Geography course included elements of biology, history courses and Classical Languages - civics.


philtrius Kurs klassicheskih languages have, vklyuchayuschiy elements obschestvovѣdѣniya - it's funny. Relatively himii and physics - does not understand: what is beginning to converge - is odin predmet? or even nѣt? (Merged physics was, incidentally, be with kosmografiey, and not unto himiey and biologiey - and was taught very superficially, unto kachestvѣ rest ot osnovnago soderzhaniya.) bolѣe more fun, of course, "tsѣlnoe predstavlenie of mirѣ" and "modern mirovozzrѣnie.



zyrianin What fun? Reading the "Politics" Aristotle and the "Annals" of Tacitus, a schoolboy to master not only the language but also social studies. And at a level deeper than the modern schoolboy.
At the end of XIX - early XX centuries. the question of the atomistic nature of matter was still controversial. Not in school and in academia. In those conditions, school knowledge of physics and chemistry could not yet form a unified ideological system. A modern school should teach such a system.



philtrius 1. The schoolboys have not read or "policy" or "Annalov. 2. Togdashniya estestvennyya science unto shkolѣ not pretend to mirovozzrѣncheskiya funktsii (although the Progressives tried to - unto svoih materialisticheskih vidah - unto them to impose it) - it is only reasonable podhod. What ye shall impose on you try?



zyrianin 1. Read. Not entirely, but in the anthology texts partially included. Just as the head of the Roman jurists. 2. And where does materialism? One of the greatest physicists of the twentieth century, Academician Bogolyubov was not a materialist. But in shaping his worldview physics is quite involved. In order for an individual world view formed Human harmoniously includes scientific and religious components of science need to know. Maybe not everyone wants to have such a worldview, not the business school to impose - but provide a basis for his school still have to.



philtrius 1. I beg your reference. Kakiya it hrestomatii, prednaznachennyya to rate drevnih languages have you imѣete unto mind? 2. "Schools should" - reign over etim Zѣlinskiy still very witty izdѣvalsya. The school has nothing dѣlat for schet obrazovaniya and contrary him. Imposing chuzhdyya her mirovozzrѣncheskiya problem, you mѣshaete so much larger chѣm nynѣshnie reformers.



zyrianin When I studied law and taught Latin, saw pre-revolutionary anthology. Details can not remember the years passed.
you somewhere I read that I plead for the "philosophical problem of school? I write exactly the opposite. Shkkola if they should give something, then knowledge. But without the knowledge of philosophy will curve, but some kind of worldview, anyone has.



philtrius well. Relatively hrestomatiy - spishem on prescription and memory. Meanwhile vynuzhden state that tezis neubѣditelen: prepodavanie drevnih languages have not stated and could not put tsѣlyu give znaniya on obschestvovѣdѣniyu. relatively mirovozzrѣniya - if you do not say that the school it should give you associate her with the task stanovleniem mirovozzrѣniya, what do you think are needed vsѣ science, and even unto formѣ depth (which is not sootvѣtstvuet dѣystvitelnosti).



zyrianin It seems to me quite obvious that the pre-revolutionary lawyers knew and Roman history and Roman law is much better their modern counterparts. A framework for this laid back in grammar school. Social science "in general", without specific knowledge of history, economics and the right, just and turns into a set of ideologies. The same applies to the natural sciences: physics, chemistry and biology are interrelated, contemporary science studies these connections, and a modern school in the state for at least an indication of the presence of these links.


philtrius 1. I do not know, kak znayut modern counterparts. Mozhet have to know much better - no, Thus it is difficult. Istoriya Rome unto gimnaziyah yes, there was, and the right - the same unto kommentariyah Zѣlinskago unto rѣcham Cicero, and not bolѣe. 2. For In order to indicate to this relationship, rather treh minut. "Dѣti, physics, and himiya biologiya interrelated. Remember? Tomorrow, I ask. " In order to show her - not the entire curriculum.



zyrianin Not so hard, you're right. A graduate of the modern law department did not know Roman history at all (it "Pass" for 5 years before graduating from high school and long forgotten) that virtually make no sense of the formal study of the history of the Roman state and the law. Appropriate attitude to the Roman law: "ottarabanit and quickly forget." Meanwhile, Roman law - the basis of civil law (in any case, the "continental" non-Anglo-Saxon).
School program includes a description of the atom in the chemistry course - which is not known and Mendeleev. Course of Organic Chemistry includes elements of quantum chemistry: For example, an 11-grader should know that the "one stick - two sticks" in the formula of benzene in fact represent a "benzene ring" with a common electronic cloud. That's when the teenager did not provide such a framework, but at the same time vtyuhivayut "something ideological, the result is bound to be disappointing. Or "remember that interrelated "bounce, like peas from a wall, or mindlessly memorizing ideological stereotypes, and a graduate sincerely believes that it can not know the" details " Having thus "correct common vision".



philtrius 1. Modern lawyers and do not know smogut rimskago neither the right nor the Roman istorii, unless and until programmѣ unto it shall be mandatory to remain a benzene ring. Prichem unto vuzѣ budut not know, and not unto shkolѣ; ih enough to prepare unto the acquaintance unto sources rimskago law unto originalѣ, but even if it unto perevodah, school-based estestvennym naukam be subjected to the most unforgiving vivisektsii. 2. Vsѣ svѣdѣniya volume elementarnyh chastitsah not imѣyut nothing dorm unto opytom student and mogut only taught dogmatically. Now therefore that between "Fundamentals" and "mirovozzrѣncheskim" unto the pedagogical point of zrѣniya nѣt no difference.



zyrianin unsubstantiated. "Do not smogut" - and that's it! If человеку нужно полноценное среднее образование, вполне сможет. Оно не всем нужно? - с этим не спорю. Но те, кому нужно, должны его получать.


fugu_fish unproven just claim that they can. No one checked. Most likely would die in the process. Because the teaching load of 8 class where they teach and to benzene rings, and Tacitus, and two foreign - now about 12 hours a day - 7 lessons, and at least 4-5 hours on amateur video. When training Saturday. And the children dream of the tenth classroom and core learning, when they benzene rings are replaced by natural science. And those who on the contrary, the benzene rings love, dream, when the same with their second foreign language will be removed and Tacitus. Because while they represent your ideals of comprehensive education, they go to sleep somewhere in the morning about. Months and years. And these children a little bit, quite frankly, in a regular school, and this is not close. Because it is not secondary education, and his superuluchshenny option. Conventional nevysokomotivirovannye children with normal abilities in such schools are simply unwilling or unable to act.
All high school on the fence to align impossible.



zyrianin My eldest son was just in such sverhperegruzhennoy school. Where the "elite status" maintained by the huge homework right of subject forbidding inflate rate in excess of the program, etc. Mother insisted on this school (her "friend says," that the school is very cool) - well, boy and tormented. When translated it into a regular class of the Humanities, began to study fine. The university was one of the best on the course, now a graduate student. A school on three barely pulled. Junior finished matklass to mathematics is not addicted, but he knew well. Without significant losses in other subjects.
second Foreign Language - is a serious bid to ensure that maximum ease as many other subjects. But it is easier, but not abolished: This is what I insist. Clearly, for Fizmatgiz, Moscow and humanitarian areas amounts to, suitability, humanities and natural sciences should be different. But do not know some of the current school subjects at all, even on C grade - it means to be uneducated.



fugu_fish I think, you are contradicting yourself. You just insisted on the broadest basis for all learning, Tacitus, physics, chemistry, and almost ancient languages and now speak. Here's a guy that was transferred to normal Humanities class, and there it blossomed. I think it would be easier to understand you if you explain what items were missing in the humanities class, compared so, in which he studied before. And also tell us what the Humanities class, and class with lighter teaching of many subjects, differs from the proposed the idea of standards, with 10 subjects (rosiiyuvmire OBZH and take out the brackets). And anyway all you do is write in relation to any school, senior or principal? The main already have obegchat and facilitate non-core subjects like that? " Or in the main to avoid overloading should not be allowed to go into interesting? Because that 100% of normal development of the program uniformly in all subjects plus a deepening interest gives you that picture, which I wrote. It is still not reaching the highest school. Where uglublenka has a different weight and volume.



zyrianin mistake of the school from which you left a son, I see in trying to make "all the objects profile. Ie there were fizmatklassy (very strong) - but in the rest of the level of mathematics was above the normal school. And the two languages. And great writing assignments for Humanitarian subjects. And necessarily required to engage in extra-curricular (my son it was Drama, Art). All this really led to overload.
A in human class last school everything was fine. All subjects, but the natural "in a lightweight form." History, literature - much wider than the overall program. What is needed, I think. Naturalists, too, will pull the program with a little reduced humanities and advanced mathematics, physics (or chemistry, biology).

In principle, I am for more early specialization, not the 10 class, with 6-7. (For language, as in the Soviet special schools, with the 1 st.) But, again, with preservation of school subjects, only the redistribution of hours.



philtrius 1. I do not dolzhen prove. I do not know yuristov, pomnyaschih estestvennyya science even unto shkolnom obemѣ CCCP and znakomyh unto sources rimskago law unto originalѣ. Single copies can submit sebѣ; kak mass production - nѣt. If among you drugiya svѣdѣniya, please call familii and main stages of a career. That it shall be the only myslimym dokazatelstvom opportunities. 2. Trebovanie to vsyakiy, who poluchaet average obrazovanie, nepremѣnno znal of benzene ring with vsѣmi attendant, unrealistic and - force unto its kicking my eyes unto irrelevance - Is just silly.



zyrianin If the lawyer does not remember physics to chemistry, even in school the bulk (more than sparing), the study of criminology course technology will only be a formality. We set the way it is, not only for the jurist or statesman, but also for any expert on the criminal law. And is it normal? Similarly, I think the wrong situation where a lawyer (especially civil lawyer) does not know the Roman / early Byzantine history at would be at the school level (I'm not talking about grammar school - where too). If he Numa Pompily and brothers Gracchus, and dominant of the Principate, Constantine and Justinian only sets of letters related to "something a Roman" - he and Roman law only vyzubril and immediately forgotten. I'm not saying that all are obliged to examine on a fundamental textbook Intercession: Novitsky more than sufficient. But if you, thumbing through a textbook Pokrovsky, a graduate of a legal institution does not understand what it meant - so he and Nowicki do not understand.
Humanitarian knowledge must be intact, otherwise it is not knowledge, but a collection of information. As it is impossible to know "only the optics" or "only the thermodynamics, and the need to examine the general physics, classical and quantum, and only then in some specialize - in much the same understanding of the humanities must the fundamentals of law, economics and history. But this understanding is not achieved without a good literature course. Everything is connected.



philtrius Ponimanie fundamentalnyh osnov istorii - are you about chem? If a kritikѣ istochnikov not mind it shkolnago dѣlo. If the "essence ponimanii istoricheskago process," I do not understand her and not vidѣl chelovѣka that would ponimal (sharlatanov ot Marxism unto razschet not berem). Cb economies - for nashih rossiyskih realiy y nas nѣt adekvatnago opisaniya about ponimanii not talking, and generally the right way - ot podrobnago opisaniya unto etim samym osnovam. Ponimanie fundamentalnyh osnov right - it predlozhenie introduce another odin predmet, ih slishkom little? Then enter linguistics, psihologiyu, filosofiyu, onѣ need not less, kak connector You can collect thirty predmetov - an hour unto nedѣlyu.


zyrianin I do what I'm talking about school social studies courses (including the basics of law and economics) and history. And also that a professional, whether it be a historian, economist or lawyer, should know the "adjacent specialties. Not at the level of the specialist, but at least as school teacher of history and civics. Specialist theoretical, of course, must know deeply. That this knowledge over time and the fundamentals are obtained. While it is important to understand that such a basis is that the community - a single object of study, and developing (hist).


philtrius I do not know naschet rights nikakiha azova эkonomiki not sushtestvueta. Ostalynoma unto your trebovaniya horoshi but dlya obrazovaniya vedushtiha spetsialistova unto raznыha oblastyaha; BREASTFEEDING srednemu this is not no imѣet otnosheniya. Really impossible to know thoroughly, and its narrow range - unto you never learn pushkinovѣdѣniya, as if to the right unto Derzhavinym, budut probѣly unto Sumarokovѣ. Round about this smezhnyya znaniya dѣystvitelno narastayut, but it proishodit by itself, without vsyakago uchastiya school - she tut sovsѣm not at dѣlah. «Ponimaniya" something the school does not and could not be dostigaet mozhet - this "something" you can memorize and rattle off. And if the "unity" and tsѣlnost "imѣli some smysl would not be unto late sovѣtskoy shkolѣ takih nastoychivyh razgovorov of interdisciplinary integratsii.
Generally I etot razgovor vyzyvaet otchayaniya feeling - if going unto shkolѣ mozhet be incomprehensible to such a degree kak unto you, and if this pozitsiya prevalent - can not wait of course we just a decent school to vtorago prishestviya.



zyrianin techie economy: what is the "enterprise" and "taxes", what do the bookkeeping and bank than trade on stock exchanges. And one more thing at the same level. In the course of history is necessary to explain than subsistence farming is different from the market, while artisanal production from the industrial.
You can submit pushkinist who does not know Russian and European history in the volume of the curriculum? I'm only on this volume say. Legalize it a drastic reduction, we find no specialists, one likes, and dropouts. If the lawyer (not the leading expert in a particular area, and the usual legal counsel) did not remember the school course of ancient history, ie entirely, completely (and the school is not known, but since so many years ago! ") therefore, he did not understand the Roman law, when it "took." And if a student does not understand him, then and now does not understand this civil right. I'm no one is required and not expect some sort of weird-depth knowledge and understanding available to very few. But then, what is taught in middle and high school at the really helpful. Ignorance and misunderstanding useful - is harmful. Want to specialize? - Please specializes. Ie Know what you need to know everything, but its domain know as she is known by few. Otherwise it is not specialization, and profanity. Know "at C grade," ie, understand what is at stake, be able to ask questions and understand the answers, people owe a lot. From a variety of areas.

occurring at school I know and makes me, if not despair, intense anger. But More outrage is striving to legitimize the current disgrace.



philtrius Istoricheskiya znaniya, nuzhnyya Pushkinist, you can submit sebѣ - gdѣ something they should be much podrobnѣe school gdѣ something (eg, regarding tsivilizatsiy Dalnyago East) - ih no need at all. But many trudnѣe submit sebѣ pushkinist, chitayuschago not in French, of course, and both can leave for his samostoyatelnago izucheniya but independently run istoriyu easier chѣm yazyk; istoriyu I Incidentally, not cast, I'll just tidy up pretenzii to "ponimanie and leave sobytiyny ryad. A second new yazyk for srednyago obrazovaniya give unto obyazatelnom poryadkѣ and horoshem urovnѣ - clearing for him mѣsto, razumѣetsya, putem vivisektsii. What predpriyatie and taxes industrialnoe and handicraft sector, You can easily find and vnѣ school. Bolѣe, it is difficult not to know. Tot obem that will remain unto rezultatѣ Vashih manipulyatsiy is perceived by sam a — изъ воздуха. Драгоцѣнное школьное время на это тратить нѣтъ смысла.
Школьнаго курса античной исторiи юристъ помнить не можетъ: слишкомъ давно это было, слишкомъ superficially passed, slishkom mal obem svѣdѣniy, kotoryya poslѣ could remember it (do not forget that is 1 / 10 - unto luchshem sluchaѣ!). Znaniya withheld when unto nih there is a need - we have something "dѣlaem" be with them - or there unto them interes. Behold, yesterday I rѣshil stereometric task that hath given mnѣ gimnazicheskiy matematik - out of the number of slozhnyh for CSE. But I etim - not doing poslѣ school - was fond of at mѣrѣ then. And the fact that there was no mind or heart, razsypalos - torchat unto brain kakie some wreckage, only mѣshayut.



zyrianin I did not insist on the fact that the attorney must keep in mind (at least three) WHOLE school course. Same stereometry, for example. But if he has forgotten the history of the ancient world to the time when he studied at the university, "the story of the State and Law and Roman right - hence, the time for these items, too, thrown in vain, he did not understand them. And if something he remembered from school, and the Institute on the former impose new knowledge - that the cumulative knowledge has already left. Man can not remember who the Scipio, and under what emperor ended the persecution of Christians, but "something" still remained and this "something" works. Man thinks in the same logical paradigm as its Latin predecessors. Because he is at the time deciphered the logic (when taught Roman law), and understood it (because it is perceived in its historical context, more or less familiar with the school) and not dully wonks.
With regard to the perception from the air - it's a poor teacher who does not rely on it and does not know how to use it. Often cause teachers - only issue is that students "already know". But just draw and connect with other knowledge. School is just and must train ordering, logic. Good teachers enough? - Yes, very little. But the "reformed" school, they generally will not be needed. Specialization will not save: these special schools is unlikely to be greater, and the abolition of physics and mathematics ordinary class humanitarian will not.



philtrius can, unto kontsov standing last, to understand a simple thing. Very simple. Very. For normalnago srednyago gumanitarnago obrazovaniya Need unto shkolѣ two novyh language and Latin. I repeat - unto shkolѣ. I repeat once more - unto shkolѣ, and horoshem urovnѣ. Potom ih teach it shall be too late - potom should receive Higher obrazovanie and catch a lot of languages slozhnѣe, chѣm everything else; Latin own and do not catch up. What unto Vashih glazah helpful to samom dѣlѣ harmful because mѣshaet necessary. Break new ground - and unto primarily schet "mirovozzrѣniya", "tsѣlnosti", "ponimaniya and prochih fiktsiy.


zyrianin Perhaps, at first still dobemsya to graduate school one (1) the language he knew? Ie could it not adapted to read the texts, was able to communicate on everyday topics, understand the lyrics, etc.? No because of this. And another thing: I am opposed to Eurocentrism, he has brought much evil and still bring. Do not know any Chinese or Indian - in our time is unacceptable. Even avid Pushkin scholars. So even without the history and geography - in any way.
In general, specialization is useful, do I deny? Let it be humanitarian classes, as an analogue of the classical school, Physics and Mathematics and the natural ("realists"). Something needs to be recovered from the preceding: the same Latin. (If the school is Orthodox, and have a course of Church, then would have been useful and Greek, though shortened against gymnasium course.) Something must be modernized, and a great deal.

But the "break new ground" as you propose - barbarism.